NewStats: 3,261,343 , 8,173,728 topics. Date: Wednesday, 28 May 2025 at 09:31 PM 18133o6z3e3g |
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it's similar but not the same. sonmvayina: 1 Like |
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That's understandable, just read 2 Peter 3:7-10, don't just read verse 8-9. Read broader. You'll see it's about judgment and the day of the Lord to come. Like I said, you mustn't agree with me but take your time to read it again. Thanks for your time every time. Kobojunkie: |
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I can understand you. Take your time and study the bible carefully, and especially the verse in 2 peter. You'll see that both verses are talking about the judgment to come. They're both pointing to the day of Judgment which will happen when Christ returns. That is the day reserved for all judgments, even the judgment on Adam. It's ok if you disagree though, I'm not here to make you understand what I say, I just posted what I know. Whoever find it reasonable will learn from me, you don't have to. Thank you for your time though. Chao chao . Kobojunkie: |
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Oh I see but to help you better, Adam also did not eat because it was the tree of life that was given him to eat. All the same, I think they are different story and the premises are totally different sonmvayina: |
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I really understand your point and I see it. I'm sorry I just need to make slight adjustment to your thought. The bible never said that a day years in God's presence is a thousand years on earth. For context, you need to understand that simile was in that place to tell you that it's just figure of speech and not a fact. It was a figure of speech to say that a day before God is a very long time and when that time is ed, it's ed vividly. It's not a yardstick for time measurement. It's just figure of speech. Try to look at it again, pls. Kobojunkie: |
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I hope you can see that non of these translation say Satan is an angel. The NIV calls him the morning star because of the bias that he's an angel but the JW and KJV don't hold such bias. To be precise, the bible calls him son of morning, in reference to Venus because Venus rises in the morning and falls in the evening. The proverb is more focused on Satan's fall from glory rather than the assumption that he's an angel. But I do understand why you would say that though, I just wanted you to see that the Bible does not really hold such a sentiment. MaxInDHouse: |
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I did, no it doesn't and the word translated as Lucifer were not actually "word" but a phrasal description of an individual. That individual was described as the son of the beginning indicating that Satan was a son of God so as Adam and Jesus so I don't know where you got this idea of Satan being an angel. Are you also saying Adam is an angel because the bible calls him son of God? MaxInDHouse: |
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But this is a totally different story form the bible's Adam or what do you think? sonmvayina: |
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We're saying the same thing, however, you and I understand presence of the Lord differently. Presence of the Lord is the Day of rest, the day that has never happened on earth. It's in that Day that Adam will die. And we know that Jesus will bring that Day on earth in the end. Consequently, Adam will die in the end. Kobojunkie: |
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Did they say Satan is one of those people in the book of Job? I think the context of what we see in the book of Job is that the morning stars gathered and Satan (not necessarily a morning Star) ed them. MaxInDHouse: |
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That's reasonable. However, one of the reasons Satan could have fallen was because he was in a place meant for angel - that is, he wasn't an angel but went to a place meant for angels and that made it quite easy for him to be defeated. Recall, Isaiah said Satan will ascend into heaven. It's a man that ascends into heaven. Just like Jesus, a man, ascended into heaven. kppo: |
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It may look like that but that's not the case, dear friend. The verse doesn't have anything like angel in it. Also, the verse doesn't say how Jesus saw Satan fall, whether before he came to earth or seen in a vision as something to happen later. However, John, in revelation, tells us that Satan fell after Jesus rose to Heaven. And Even so, John didn't say Satan is an angel. This was just a traditional beliefs that has wriggled its way into modern religions. kppo: |
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Many assume Satan was once an angel, but the Bible never explicitly states this. While popular tradition teaches that he is a fallen angel, Scripture only implies it indirectly—never with clear, direct language. 1. No Verse really Calls Satan an Angel The Bible mentions angels thousands of times and Satan dozens of times, yet nowhere does it say, "Satan was an angel." Even in Revelation 12:7-9, where Satan leads rebellious angels, he is called a "dragon" and "devil"—not an angel. 2. Ezekiel 28’s "Cherub" is Symbolic Ezekiel 28 describes a glorious "guardian cherub" who fell, but this is directed at the “human king” (v. 12). Linking it to Satan is traditional, not a direct biblical statement. 3. Isaiah 14’s "Morning Star" Refers to a King Isaiah 14:12-15 speaks of a proud ruler (the king of Babylon) cast down—not Satan. The name "Lucifer" comes from Latin translation, not the original Hebrew. 4. Fallen Angels ≠ Satan Jude 1:6 and 2 Peter 2:4 mention angels who sinned, but Satan is never included in those groups. Conclusion: Tradition, Not Scripture The belief that Satan was an angel comes from later theology, not the Bible itself. Scripture describes Satan as an adversary, tempter, and ruler of this world—but never as a fallen angel. If we continue to believe Satan is an angel, the Bible simply doesn’t it. |
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Tell me about this Adapa story pls sonmvayina: |
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But the message is that Adam will eventually die and not that Adam will start dying. The death was something that happens at last according to God. armchairscholar: |
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That’s reasonable but that’s not the tone of the message. The tone of the message was to show that if Adam touched the fruit there will be consequence. It’s a show of power not just an instruction. Because if Adam touched the fruit, he’ll become like God and may want to get too cocky but God was reassuring him before hand that that would end in tears for him (not literally btw). Also, if the death was just what Adam did and it’s something Adam would cause by himself, that would me Adam could have reversed his actions and not die anymore. But the death is not in the power of Adam. There’s no where in the Bible where God is called life. Only Christ was called life and that’s because he carried the living word of God in his heart and became life for. God is not life, his word is life. If someone separate himself from the word through rejection and offense, they’ll die physically and God will destroy them in the end along with Adam. Thankgod89: |
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The first death is caused by man himself, that is not God. Even the food you eat contribute to your first death. However, the second death is something that only God will cause. That is the death God knows. That's why Jesus says "fear him who will cast both body and soul in fire." StillDtruth: |
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You're the one saying the day is 1000 days in presence of God StillDtruth: |
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Like I said in the write up, nothing in the verse indicates that. Nothing in the idea of spiritual death in Ephesians tells you that this will happen on a day, but the final death is known to happen on the day of God. So i don't think it was anything like spiritual. Also, let's not make it like God reacted immediately Adam sinned. God does not reach immediately. Thankgod89: |
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That’s also a good thinking. However, we must be flexible enough to see that everything in the Bible is not just for Israel. They’re for a kind of people. Israel represented an example of that kind of people so everything pointed to Israel as an example until we actually see those people. When Christ came, he established that kingdom and became the first of that kind of people which the Bible was actually talking about when it points to Israel as an example. This is why the Bible says he is the first of every creation—Colossians 1:15. Was Christ the first person ever born in Israel? No, but he was the first person to exist among that people that the Bible actually points to. This is why someone even called him “last Adam” in the Bible because the story in the Bible is actually about him being the first man God creates and blessed him with all authority to rule the fishes and every creature and gave him power to subdue the earth and fill it up with the fragrance of God. MrPresident1: |
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This is a beautiful perspective. Never saw it like this. I think we should not sound too theological that we throw facts away. All the event of Genesis 2-3 are not about Israel even though you can see allegories in it. So let’s not outrightly say the story is about Israel. However, can say the story also represent Israel. MrPresident1: |
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NNtv: Good point, very thoughtful of you. So let’s look at that. Jesus did not come for Adam. God had already told Adam that he’ll die. The death God was talking about is that death that Jesus called the second death. People didn’t know of it, that’s why Jesus revealed it. So that death will happen when Christ returns and to open the lake of fire. That’s when Adam will surely die as God had said. |
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Continuation of Part 1 While there are no indications in the texts showing what God meant by “day” or “death,” we have tried to add nuances to the texts to make sense of the whole situation in a way that does not portray God as a bluffer. Some say the "day" is 1,000 years, while others say it’s a 24-hour day. Some say the "death" was spiritual, while others believe it was a natural death. Some interpret the death as separation from God. However, it is worth noting that none of these nuances can be clearly seen in the text. They are often added by individuals, as the text neither implies nor infers any of these meanings. How Do We Know What God Meant? We simply have to continue reading to understand the statement. We must read toward the actual fall to grasp what God meant. What Did God Say After Adam Ate the Fruit? In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. — Genesis 3:19 God told Adam that he would return to where he came from. Recall that Adam did not exist until God created him from the ground. To "return to where he was taken from" means to return to nonexistence—by the same ground from which he was made to exist. Therefore, the death mentioned in the text refers to the second death. Until a man dies the second death, he is not truly dead before God. God was simply telling Adam that he would experience the second death if he ate from the tree. On Which Day Will He Die? Adam was in the presence of God (in the garden) when he received the command and when he disobeyed it. After his disobedience, Adam was cast out of the garden—away from the presence of God. Since Adam no longer experienced the "day of the Lord," he could not have died on a day he could not partake in. Therefore, the "day" in the presence of God must return to earth for Adam to die on that day. This refers to the day when Christ will return in the power of God, and Adam will be subjected to death for introducing sin into the world. Conclusion The "death" is the second death, which all sinners must undergo, while the "day" which Adam will die is the day of the Lord. Thank you for reading. |
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Continuation of Part 1 While there are no indications in the texts showing what God meant by “day” or “death,” we have tried to add nuances to the texts to make sense of the whole situation in a way that does not portray God as a bluffer. Some say the "day" is 1,000 years, while others say it’s a 24-hour day. Some say the "death" was spiritual, while others believe it was a natural death. Some interpret the death as separation from God. However, it is worth noting that none of these nuances can be clearly seen in the text. They are often added by individuals, as the text neither implies nor infers any of these meanings. How Do We Know What God Meant? We simply have to continue reading to understand the statement. We must read toward the actual fall to grasp what God meant. What Did God Say After Adam Ate the Fruit? In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. — Genesis 3:19 God told Adam that he would return to where he came from. Recall that Adam did not exist until God created him from the ground. To "return to where he was taken from" means to return to nonexistence—by the same ground from which he was made to exist. Therefore, the death mentioned in the text refers to the second death. Until a man dies the second death, he is not truly dead before God. God was simply telling Adam that he would experience the second death if he ate from the tree. On Which Day Will He Die? Adam was in the presence of God (in the garden) when he received the command and when he disobeyed it. After his disobedience, Adam was cast out of the garden—away from the presence of God. Since Adam no longer experienced the "day of the Lord," he could not have died on a day he could not partake in. Therefore, the "day" in the presence of God must return to earth for Adam to die on that day. This refers to the day when Christ will return in the power of God, and Adam will be subjected to death for introducing sin into the world. Conclusion The "death" is the second death, which all sinners must undergo, while the "day" which Adam will die is the day of the Lord. Thank you for reading. |
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StillDtruth: That’s the easy pick that Satan wants you to believe was what God was saying. Kindly look out for the part 2 of this write up. If God was talking about a day in his presence then God must have mentioned then the death will be in God’s present too. |
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MaxInDHouse: Well, there was no indication of such telling if it’s a day in God’s presence or a day in adam’s presence. So you’ll be assuming to keep your beliefs. There’s no where else that corroborates that the day God was talking about is 1000years. |
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Gabrielshow24: Everything you’ve mentioned are things we add from our own experiences and beliefs to the text. They’re not there and that’s why you can’t let the scriptures interpret themselves in this case. 1 Like |
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“You shall surely die in the day that you eat thereof.” It is quite surprising that Adam did not die after eating from the tree, as God had informed him, which makes us question whether "the day" referred to something else, or if God was just bluffing. Many scholars have attempted to overcome this intellectual hurdle by offering various interpretations of the word "day" in this context, aiming to prevent God's words from being seen as a mere bluff. Others, however, argue that there are no indications that "the day" meant anything other than a typical 24-hour day. These individuals further conclude that God was simply trying to prevent man from eating the fruit by issuing a vain threat. The commandment reads as follows: “Of every tree of the garden, thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.” Bone of contention: “For in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die.” Some argue that God’s threat did not come to , as Adam was recorded to have lived for hundreds of years after eating from the tree. Others propose that Adam died spiritually, introducing the concepts of spiritual and physical death. However, these new concepts fail to convince many, as they appear to have been inserted into the Bible by those who are reluctant to believe that God’s threat was simply a bluff. The idea of spiritual death, though not originally implied, is being used to ensure that God is continuously seen as truthful. |
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