NewStats: 3,263,623 , 8,180,806 topics. Date: Friday, 06 June 2025 at 09:28 PM 456d64

Jude verse 9 refers to an event which is found nowhere else in Scripture. Michael had to struggle or dispute with Satan about the body of Moses, but what that entailed is not described. Another angelic struggle is related by Daniel, who describes an angel coming to him in a vision. This angel, named Gabriel in Daniel 8:16 and 9:21, tells Daniel that he was “resisted” by a demon called “the prince of Persia” until the archangel Michael came to his assistance (Daniel 10:13). So we learn from Daniel that angels and demons fight spiritual battles over the souls of men and nations, and that the demons resist angels and try to prevent them from doing God’s bidding. Jude tells us that Michael was sent by God to deal in some way with the body of Moses, which God Himself had buried after Moses’ death (Deuteronomy 34:5-6).

Can someone explain better

one way to explain this is to look at a bigger picture and assume that angels and demons have equal power or strength.. they be even be the same entities in substance.. in fact they are.. maybe not as it has been described. secondly another point is to assume that they both actually want the body for themselves as if it were some form or nourishment. that paints a clearer picture that these 4 dimensional beings have some control over the physical realm and feed on human body in some way for nourishment.. and probably desire some bodies due to the power(how nourishing ) that body possess. with this.. it will be pretty obvious why they were fighting over it.

PS// don't assume that there are physical concepts and spiritual concepts as two independent things. they are the same albeit we don't have the senses to perceive the other reality

njelrapheal:
one way to explain this is to look at a bigger picture and assume that angels and demons have equal power or strength.. they be even be the same entities in substance.. in fact they are.. maybe not as it has been described. secondly another point is to assume that they both actually want the body for themselves as if it were some form or nourishment. that paints a clearer picture that these 4 dimensional beings have some control over the physical realm and feed on human body in some way for nourishment.. and probably desire some bodies due to the power(how nourishing ) that body possess. with this.. it will be pretty obvious why they were fighting over it.

PS// don't assume that there are physical concepts and spiritual concepts as two independent things. they are the same albeit we don't have the senses to perceive the other reality

Nice concept

ICEWIN:
➜Jude verse 9 refers to an event which is found nowhere else in Scripture. [b]Michael had to struggle or dispute with Satan about the body of Moses, but what that entailed is not described. Another angelic struggle is related by Daniel, who describes an angel coming to him in a vision. This angel, named Gabriel in Daniel 8:16 and 9:21, tells Daniel that he was “resisted” by a demon called “the prince of Persia” until the archangel Michael came to his assistance (Daniel 10:13). So we learn from Daniel that angels and demons fight spiritual battles over the souls of men and nations, and that the demons resist angels and try to prevent them from doing God’s bidding. [/b]Jude tells us that Michael was sent by God to deal in some way with the body of Moses, which God Himself had buried after Moses’ death (Deuteronomy 34:5-6).

1. How did you conclude that the Prince of Persia mentioned at the time of Daniel — near the height of the Persian Empire, mind you— was a demon in this case?

In the same book of Daniel, the character referred to as Michael is described as a great prince who was described as being in charge of Daniel's people — the Israelites.

13 But the prince of Persia has been fighting against me for 21 days. Then Michael, one of the most important princes, came to help me because I was stuck there with the king of Persia.
14 Now I have come to you, Daniel, to explain to you what will happen to your people in the future. The vision is about a time in the future.” - Daniel 11 vs 13 - 14

...

1. “Daniel, at that time the great prince Michael will stand up. Michael is in charge of your people. There will be a time of much trouble, the worst time since nations have been on earth. But Daniel, at that time, every one of your people whose name is found written in the book of life will be saved - Daniel 12 vs 1

My question then to you is why you have instead chosen to describe the vision had by Daniel as an encounter between angels and demons?

ICEWIN:

Can someone explain better

I'm Maximus one of Jehovah's Witnesses would you like me to contribute to the ongoing discussion?

Kobojunkie:
1. How did you conclude that the Prince of Persia mentioned at the time of Daniel — near the height of the Persian Empire, mind you— was a demon in this case?

In the same book of Daniel, the character referred to as Michael is described as a great prince who was described as being in charge of Daniel's people — the Israelites.
...
My question then to you is why you have instead chosen to describe the vision had by Daniel as an encounter between angels and demons?

but you didnt attempt to focus on the main event which is that of jude 9

MaxInDHouse:

I'm Maximus one of Jehovah's Witnesses would you like me to contribute to the ongoing discussion?

Yes

ICEWIN:

Yes

Alright!
In the beginning Satan lied that Adam and Eve won't die if they rebel against God but they died so to continue making people feel death is just an illusion Satan and his cohorts (demons) are using dead people to promote their lies .
HOW?
Once a person dies a demon will come to copy the body of such a person so that this demon will start appearing to people who knew this dead person as if the diseased is still alive. Read Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
That was exactly what Satan came to do with the body of Moses.
Think of what could have happened if Moses who died on the mountain begin to appear to the Israelites and telling them twisted things, would it be easy for them to follow Joshua whom Moses had appointed as his successor?
Today in most lands people don't believe that the dead are really dead due to the experiences many had with these demons as they pretends to be their dead loved ones using their voices and telling them what the diseased told them in secret.
So Archangel Michael (Jesus) came to the scene and stopped Satan from copying the body of Moses as he (Michael) is the angel that standing for the salvation of God's people! Daniel 12:1
God bless you and may you have peace!

njelrapheal:
✓ but you didnt attempt to focus on the main event which is that of jude 9

What main event?

There is no Jude 9. There is only one chapter in the book of Jude and to understand what the man intended in that text, one first needs grasp the events referenced. The questions I asked in my previous post where to clear the air ok the claims made by the OP and those contained in the texts he referenced without carefully reading himself.

ICEWIN:
Jude verse 9 refers to an event which is found nowhere else in Scripture. Michael had to struggle or dispute with Satan about the body of Moses, but what that entailed is not described. Another angelic struggle is related by Daniel, who describes an angel coming to him in a vision. This angel, named Gabriel in Daniel 8:16 and 9:21, tells Daniel that he was “resisted” by a demon called “the prince of Persia” until the archangel Michael came to his assistance (Daniel 10:13). So we learn from Daniel that angels and demons fight spiritual battles over the souls of men and nations, and that the demons resist angels and try to prevent them from doing God’s bidding. Jude tells us that Michael was sent by God to deal in some way with the body of Moses, which God Himself had buried after Moses’ death (Deuteronomy 34:5-6).

Op, it's a mystery.
See it as a defining fact that when 'men' are buried their graves are known!

Satan brought up an antagonistic or watchdog view by demanding for the body of Moses or rather put his grave site! — something God didn't reveal.

Till now, according to Jewish traditions Moses' burial site is not known.

Also the battle in Daniel is not mostly physical as most people will think.

It's related to the same concept.
Demons act by trying to ensure God doesn't break his own set rules(principles).

They try to use God's laws against him.
This manifested itself in them scrutinizing the purpose of such message and its recipient.

NB: Demons are weaker compared to Angels.
One Angel bound the prince of Darkness with ease.
Angels hold their peace because they know that all these are for a time! 🤧

The 'land' is made accessible to all, both to good and bad until the very end!

MaxInDHouse:

Alright!
In the beginning Satan lied that Adam and Eve won't die if they rebel against God but they died so to continue making people feel death is just an illusion Satan and his cohorts (demons) are using dead people to promote their lies .
HOW?
Once a person dies a demon will come to copy the body of such a person so that this demon will start appearing to people who knew this dead person as if the diseased is still alive. Read Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
That was exactly what Satan came to do with the body of Moses.
Think of what could have happened if Moses who died on the mountain begin to appear to the Israelites and telling them twisted things, would it be easy for them to follow Joshua whom Moses had appointed as his successor?
Today in most lands people don't believe that the dead are really dead due to the experiences many had with these demons as they pretends to be their dead loved ones using their voices and telling them what the diseased told them in secret.
So Archangel Michael (Jesus) came to the scene and stopped Satan from copying the body of Moses as he (Michael) is the angel that standing for the salvation of God's people! Daniel 12:1
God bless you and may you have peace!

MightySparrow:

See spiritual emptiness! Psalms 115:4-8

MaxInDHouse:

See spiritual emptiness! Psalms 115:4-8

What now happened to Moses' body after the dispute?

MightySparrow:


What now happened to Moses' body after the dispute?

What did your own god taught you?

MightySparrow:

What a super story 😂😂😂

Kobojunkie:
What main event?

There is no Jude 9. There is only one chapter in the book of Jude and to understand what the man intended in that text, one first needs grasp the events referenced. The questions I asked in my previous post where to clear the air ok the claims made by the OP and those contained in the texts he referenced without carefully reading himself.

What about those whose bodies are used while they yet live? 🤔

Also, what human bodies/image did angels use when they visited men? 🤨

Did they too like demons clone a dead person's image👀?

Let us know, warden Max😂😂😂

MaxInDHouse:

Alright!
In the beginning Satan lied that Adam and Eve won't die if they rebel against God but they died so to continue making people feel death is just an illusion Satan and his cohorts (demons) are using dead people to promote their lies .
HOW?
Once a person dies a demon will come to copy the body of such a person so that this demon will start appearing to people who knew this dead person as if the diseased is still alive. Read Ecclesiastes 9:5-10
That was exactly what Satan came to do with the body of Moses.
Think of what could have happened if Moses who died on the mountain begin to appear to the Israelites and telling them twisted things, would it be easy for them to follow Joshua whom Moses had appointed as his successor?
Today in most lands people don't believe that the dead are really dead due to the experiences many had with these demons as they pretends to be their dead loved ones using their voices and telling them what the diseased told them in secret.
So Archangel Michael (Jesus) came to the scene and stopped Satan from copying the body of Moses as he (Michael) is the angel that standing for the salvation of God's people! Daniel 12:1
God bless you and may you have peace!

pleas explian this process of copying...

njelrapheal:

pleas explian this process of copying...

Today technology has advanced to a stage where humans can clone creatures but Satan and demons knew all these things before now, when a person dies and his or her appearance is useful for Satan to cause confusion a demon will photocopy the person's body and voice so that by the time people see the body and hear the voice they will think death is just an illusion!

MaxInDHouse:


Today technology has advanced to a stage where humans can clone creatures but Satan and demons knew all these things before now, when a person dies and his or her appearance is useful for Satan to cause confusion a demon will photocopy the person's body and voice so that by the time people see the body and hear the voice they will think death is just an illusion!

What about Samuel in the bible🤨?

Was that also a demon copying his form? 😂😂😂

The major reason the church elders posited this was to ensure people were not running amok into "spiritual things" which they had no understanding of and most of them can't properly differentiate between "the spirit of their fallen relative" and "demonic spirits using their forms"!
Which is not entirely True, as the spirits of all 'dead' men exist within the spiritual realm

Also, I ask Max, the preacher, if he has ever seen a spirit before🤨, perhaps an angel or even God!
The aim of this question will be elucidated shortly! 🙃

Gabrielshow24:

What about Samuel in the bible🤨?
Was that also a demon copying his form? 😂😂😂

Do you believe the Bible? Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10

MaxInDHouse:


Do you believe the Bible? Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10

that's why I call you, a fool!
Can't the context tell you, it's physical 'knowledge'? 🤨

Gabrielshow24:

that's why I call you, a fool!
Can't the context tell you, it's physical 'knowledge'? 🤨

OK Mr Fool Samuel died and according to God's word the dead knows nothing and their memories wiped out they can't recognize anyone whether those they once love or hate! Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

MaxInDHouse:

OK Mr Fool Samuel died and according to God's word the dead knows nothing and their memories wiped out they can't recognize anyone whether those they once love or hate! Ecclesiastes 9:5-10

Well, tell that to Samuel! 👀

He recognized "saul"!
As far as context is concerned Solomon was talking about the physical state not the spiritual state!!!

Gabrielshow24:

Well, tell that to Samuel! 👀
He recognized "saul"!
As far as context is concerned Solomon was talking about the physical state not the spiritual state!!!

Sorry no spirit survives any creature at death! Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
Demons knows everybody so knowing Saul is nothing difficult!

MaxInDHouse:

Sorry no spirit survives any creature at death! Ecclesiastes 3:19-20
Demons knows everybody so knowing Saul is nothing difficult!

that's a cleverly invented lie!
One that fits your absurd claims of no hell fire!!!

Jesus' words damns you!
Jesus told the people to fear 'He that can kill and the body and soul!'

If nothing survives the body, what then does God want to kill?

You only cherry picked one scripture and used it to generalize an absolute statement but you failed to take other scriptures into cognizance!

Gabrielshow24:

If nothing survives the body, what then does God want to kill?

Your name in the book of life.

If you are unrighteous due to ignorance your soul (name) is safe in God's book and if He declared you righteous your name is safe in God's memory book but if you choose to be wicked that's when nothing is to be ed about you! Psalms 9:17

MaxInDHouse:

Your name in the book of life.

If you are unrighteous due to ignorance your soul (name) is safe in God's book and if He declared you righteous your name is safe in God's memory book but if you choose to be wicked that's when nothing is to be ed about you! Psalms 9:17

Cherry picking!
Well, revelation and Jesus' words suggest more than name!

If indeed it was solely name then Jesus won't suggest to people to remove "" that offend them!

Now, you have another lying🤔, coupled with some high level evading and avoiding, to perform!

Kindly tell us why Jesus suggested we cut off 'arms' of our names?👀
Or perhaps do our names have eyes also, that we might pluck them off? 🤨

Gabrielshow24:

tell us why Jesus suggested we cut off 'arms' of our names?

Do people without hands or legs have names?
If they do whatever part of their body that's missing has nothing to do with their resurrection because at resurrection they will become whole.

So it's the good name we need to build with God our present bodies is no issue with God.

MaxInDHouse:


Do people without hands or legs have names?
If they do whatever part of their body that's missing has nothing to do with their resurrection because at resurrection they will become whole.

So it's the good name we need to build with God our present bodies is no issue with God.

Ah, the classic 'missing limbs' analogy! While it’s true that people without hands or legs still have names, your argument misses the mark entirely. Names are just labels; they don’t encapsulate the essence of a person. When Jesus spoke about cutting off body parts, he wasn’t suggesting we should start a new trend in DIY surgery! He was emphasizing the seriousness of sin and the lengths one should go to avoid it.

Now, let’s address your claim that the 'soul' Jesus referred to is merely a name. If that were the case, then why would Jesus warn about the destruction of the soul in hell (Matthew 10:28)? A name doesn’t have feelings, consciousness, or the capacity for moral judgment. The soul, on the other hand, is the very essence of who we are—our spirit, our consciousness, our moral com.

Your conclusion that our physical bodies are irrelevant to God is a bit simplistic. Yes, we will be resurrected whole, but that doesn’t negate the importance of our spiritual state in this life. The choices we make, the lives we lead, and the relationships we build all contribute to our spiritual identity.

So, while you’re busy trying to reduce the profound teachings of Jesus to mere semantics about names, that the essence of our being—our spirit—is what truly matters. It’s not just about having a 'good name' in the eyes of God; it’s about living a life that reflects His love and righteousness.

In the end, it seems you’re the one in need of a spiritual makeover, not a name change!🙃

Gabrielshow24:

Names are just labels; they don’t encapsulate the essence of a person.

Can you name your child Jezebel?

MaxInDHouse:


Can you name your child Jezebel?

When someone asks if you can name your child Jezebel, you might respond with something like, "While Jezebel has a unique sound, it carries a lot of historical baggage and negative connotations. I want to choose a name that will inspire positivity and strength for my child." This way, you acknowledge the name while expressing your preference for something more uplifting. "Naming a child Jezebel? That's like naming a puppy 'Cujo'—sure, it’s memorable, but do you really want to set them up for a lifetime of explaining? I prefer names that don’t come with a side of historical drama. How about something that inspires greatness instead? After all, I want my kid to be a legend, not a cautionary tale!🤨

Also, what relevance is this to your premise? 👀