NewStats: 3,261,626 , 8,174,546 topics. Date: Thursday, 29 May 2025 at 07:50 PM 1if3a

GothamCities:


This brings us to a better understanding of what Jesus said in Acts 1:7. Honestly, I have struggled to understand that verse until tonight.

When the disciples were asking the Lord Jesus about the timing of His second coming, He answered them in Acts 1:7 which states:

"It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power."

The right thing Jesus was supposed to say is "...the time and the seasons which only the Father knows." If He had said that, it would have put a question on His omniscience. But He said the Father puts that in His power. I actually didn't understand the putting in His power phrase until tonight after reading the response from my brother Nachmonides.

Now, I understand that Jesus is speaking to His disciples here, telling them that it's not their responsibility to know the timing of the future event, - the restoration of the kingdom to Israel which happens only during the second coming. He emphasized that God the Father has reserved the right to determine the timing of the event, and it's not for humans to know or speculate about the exact timing.

This further proves that it's not a matter of Christ not being all knowing but a matter of understanding the individual roles in the Trinity.

Isn't it easier and more honest to say that Christ is God but doesn't know everything?

DaddyCoool:


Isn't it easier and more honest to say that Christ is God but doesn't know everything?

Where is the honesty in saying that? Would that not be a lie?

Bill's critique wasn't on if Christ was God or not.
His focus was on paragraphing.

You are unwise, in fact if you both vv.8-9 of Col2
It adds a stronger weight to the fact that truly in Christ dwells the fullness of deity.

DaddyCoool:


??

Trinity is singular BTW. See below

Yeah, you are correct. Pardon my English.

Nachmonides:


Concerning 1Timothy 3:16:

καὶ ὁμολογουμένως μέγα ἐστὶν τὸ τῆς εὐσεβείας μυστήριον· Ὃς ἐφανερώθη ἐν σαρκί, ἐδικαιώθη ἐν πνεύματι, ὤφθη ἀγγέλοις, ἐκηρύχθη ἐν ἔθνεσιν, ἐπιστεύθη ἐν κόσμῳ, ἀνελήμφθη ἐν δόξῃ.
And most certainly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was proclaimed among the Gentiles, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

What's the matter with the scripture that you point out?

"Who/which was manifest in the flesh".

There is no Theos '(God)' in that verse (1 Timothy 3:16).
Paul is not a Trinitarian.

Janosky:



Your fellow Trinitarian & Bible scholar disagrees with your claim about Colossians 2:9
"Jesus Christ is NOT fully God "

"

The correct rendition of 1 Timothy 3:16 is "who/which was manifest in the flesh".

Trinitarians smuggled "God" into that verse to deceive gullible folks.
Oga, pls go and .

Soo, what was manifest in the flesh?
Taking the Bible as a whole, isn't it more correct and more honest to say that Christ IS God but NOT the Father?

GothamCities:

Where is the honesty in saying that? Would that not be a lie?

I don't think so. Just as the Father can do anything but cannot be the Son - yet God can do anything

Janosky:


"Who/which was manifest in the flesh".

There is no Theos '(God)' in that verse (1 Timothy 3:16).
Paul is not a Trinitarian.

There's no disagreement with 1Timothy3:16. It is clear.


On the concept of Trinity, Apostle Paul doesn't explicitly mention the word Trinity, but his writings strongly reflect the concept.


Paul frequently references the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit together in a way that suggests their distinct roles yet unified purpose:

2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit[/b] be with you all."

Ephesians 4:4–6: "There is one body and [b]one Spirit... one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all."


2. Jesus Christ's Divine Nature
Paul unequivocally affirms Jesus’ divinity:

Same Colossians we are on;
Colossians 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."

Philippians 2:6–11: Paul describes Jesus as being in the form of God but humbling Himself to become human and obedient to death, emphasizing His equality with God.


3. The Holy Spirit as Divine
Paul views the Holy Spirit as the presence of God within believers:

Romans 8:9–11: Paul equates the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ, showing their unity in divine activity.

1 Corinthians 6:19: "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?"


4. Paul’s Monotheism
Paul remains firmly rooted in Jewish monotheism, yet he reinterprets it in light of Christ:

1 Corinthians 8:6: "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things came... and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." This verse shows Paul integrating Jesus into the Shema (The Shema declares that the Lord (YHWH) is the one and only God, emphasizing monotheism as central to Jewish belief. ) (Deuteronomy 6:4-5), a central affirmation of Jewish monotheism.

DaddyCoool:


I don't think so. Just as the Father can do anything but cannot be the Son - yet God can do anything

No.

We're not talking in of ability but responsibility.

Knowing all things is ability. Being the sole knower of a particular matter is responsibility and not ability.

God knows all things but the knowledge of the second coming is the Father's responsibility, not ability.

Nachmonides:


There's no disagreement with 1Timothy3:16. It is clear.


On the concept of Trinity, Apostle Paul doesn't explicitly mention the word Trinity, but his writings strongly reflect the concept.


Paul frequently references the Father, Son (Jesus Christ), and Holy Spirit together in a way that suggests their distinct roles yet unified purpose:

2 Corinthians 13:14: "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit[/b] be with you all."

Ephesians 4:4–6: "There is one body and [b]one Spirit... one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all."


2. Jesus Christ's Divine Nature
Paul unequivocally affirms Jesus’ divinity:

Same Colossians we are on;
Colossians 2:9: "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form."

Philippians 2:6–11: Paul describes Jesus as being in the form of God but humbling Himself to become human and obedient to death, emphasizing His equality with God.


3. The Holy Spirit as Divine
Paul views the Holy Spirit as the presence of God within believers:

Romans 8:9–11: Paul equates the Spirit of God with the Spirit of Christ, showing their unity in divine activity.

1 Corinthians 6:19: "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?"


4. Paul’s Monotheism
Paul remains firmly rooted in Jewish monotheism, yet he reinterprets it in light of Christ:

1 Corinthians 8:6: "Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things came... and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live." This verse shows Paul integrating Jesus into the Shema (The Shema declares that the Lord (YHWH) is the one and only God, emphasizing monotheism as central to Jewish belief. ) (Deuteronomy 6:4-5), a central affirmation of Jewish monotheism.

If your take is now that because Paul didn't mention Trinity explicitly, he didn't teach it therefore, that would be unwise;

Strawman Fallacy:

In this case, the fallacy would occur when someone misrepresents the argument or belief that Paul (or the Christian tradition) teaches the Trinity. By demanding that Paul explicitly mention the Trinity using modern terminology, they are oversimplifying the complexity of early Christian theology and imposing anachronistic expectations on Paul’s writings. The doctrine of the Trinity, as it is understood today, was not fully formalized until later in church history (e.g., the Nicene Creed in 325 AD), so to expect Paul to use the term "Trinity" is a misrepresentation of what he was teaching.

Begging the Question (Circular Reasoning):

This fallacy occurs when someone assumes what they are trying to prove. In this case, assuming that Paul could not have taught the Trinity because he didn't explicitly use the term "Trinity" is a circular argument. The premise is that the Trinity must be explicitly mentioned in a certain way (which is a modern formulation), and the conclusion is that since Paul didn’t use this term, he didn’t teach the Trinity. This reasoning assumes that the doctrine couldn’t have been taught in other forms, which is precisely the point being debated.

Nachmonides:
Bill's critique wasn't on if Christ was God or not.
His focus was on paragraphing.

You are unwise, in fact if you both vv.8-9 of Col2
It adds a stronger weight to the fact that truly in Christ dwells the fullness of deity.

Janosky he has a point. No?

Nachmonides:
Bill's critique wasn't on if Christ was God or not.
His focus was on paragraphing.

You are unwise, in fact if you both vv.8-9 of Col2
It adds a stronger weight to the fact that truly in Christ dwells the fullness of deity.

@ Colossians 2:9 Paul wrote about the resurrected Jesus,a spirit person in heaven (1 Corinthians 15:45) having fullness of divine nature ( which the disciples would also partake of , 2 Peter 1:4 & John 17:5,21-22).

GothamCities:


No.

We're not talking in of ability but responsibility.

Knowing all things is ability. Being the sole knower of a particular matter is responsibility and not ability.

God knows all things but the knowledge of the second coming is the Father's responsibility, not ability.

I think this is clever semantics. I think the simple and honest thing to say is that AT THE POINT Christ was saying he did not know everything, he indeed did not know everything. But only at that point

Janosky:


@ Colossians 2:9 Paul wrote about the resurrected Jesus,a spirit person in heaven (1 Corinthians 15:45) having fullness of divine nature ( which the disciples would also partake of , 2 Peter 1:4 & John 17:5,21-22).

This is what Col2:9 says,

Colossians 2:9
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς,
because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily,



Nothing like the Apostle Paul talking about a resurrected Jesus, nor about a spirit person in heaven.

Please review.

Nachmonides:


This is what Col2:9 says,

Colossians 2:9
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς,
because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily,



Nothing like the Apostle Paul talking about a resurrected Jesus, nor about a spirit person in heaven.

Please review.

Col2:9 is a continuation of v.8, and it is a warning against false philosophy. Period.

DaddyCoool:


I think this is clever semantics. I think the simple and honest thing to say is that AT THE POINT Christ was saying he did not know everything, he indeed did not know everything.

Where are the semantics?

Did He not clearly say that the Father has this particular issue in His Power? In His Authority?

Except you're viewing God as humans. That's the only reason you may not understand these concepts.

The knowledge of something can be compartmentalized as far as God is concerned .

Jesus clearly said the Father has that issue in His power - that is within His defined roles as Father. He didn't say the Father knows because only the Father can know. That would then mean Christ cannot know. Christ can know but it's not His responsibility to know. It's the Father's.

DaddyCoool:


Janosky he has a point. No?

Oga,Your opinion, you are entitled to.

Theos is not in 1 Timothy 3:16.
1 Timothy 3:16 & John 5:37 doesn't Trinity doctrine.

Yes.
Confirmed.

Paul @ Colossians 2:9 was not writing about Jesus earthly life.
Rather , Paul's writing is about Jesus the life giving spirit in heavenly glory, fullness of divine quality/nature which he (Jesus) granted the disciples to be with him.
According to the will of God the Father (Colossians 1:19).
2 Peter 1:4. John 17':5,21-22.

Nachmonides:


This is what Col2:9 says,

Colossians 2:9
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς,
because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily,



Nothing like the Apostle Paul talking about a resurrected Jesus, nor about a spirit person in heaven.

Please review.

There's no way to twist it. He stated it very clearly.
This below is contrived

Janosky:

Paul @ Colossians 2:9 was not writing about Jesus earthly life.
Rather , Paul's writing is about Jesus the life giving spirit in heavenly glory, fullness of divine quality/nature which he (Jesus) granted the disciples to be with him.
According to the will of God the Father (Colossians 1:19).
2 Peter 1:4. John 17':5,21-22.
[/b]

GothamCities:

Where are the semantics?

Did Her not clearly say that the Father has this particular issue in His Power? In His Authority?

Except you're viewing God as humans. That's the only reason you may not understand these concepts.

The knowledge of something can be compartmentalized as far as God is concerned .

Jesus clearly said the Father has that issue in His power - that is within His defined roles as Father. He didn't say the Father knows because only the Father can know. That would then mean Christ cannot know. Christ can know but it's not His responsibility to know. It's the Father's.

Semantics. If someone doesn't know something, he doesn't know it - regardless of whether it is ability or responsibility. If you then go ahead to say the person knows everything, you're being economical with the truth

Nachmonides:


This is what Col2:9 says,

Colossians 2:9
ὅτι ἐν αὐτῷ κατοικεῖ πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα τῆς θεότητος σωματικῶς,
because in him all the fullness of deity dwells bodily,



Nothing like the Apostle Paul talking about a resurrected Jesus, nor about a spirit person in heaven.

Please review.

Is Colossians 2:9 & Colossians 3:1 in your own Bible?

Oga,is Christ ( with the fullness of divine nature) sitting in your parlor?
Is Christ sitting at God's right hand in your sitting room?

Where was Christ dwelling at the time of Paul's conversion?

Oga,go and study your Bible.

Shalom .

Janosky:


Is Colossians 2:9 & Colossians 3:1 in your own Bible?

Oga,is Christ ( with the fullness of divine nature) sitting in your parlor?
Is Christ sitting at God's right hand in your sitting room?

Where was Christ dwelling at the time of Paul's conversion?

Oga,go and study your Bible.

Shalom .

What are you implying—yes Christ is seated at the right hand of the God according to Col3:1.

Shalom to you too.

I didn't get what you were trying to communicate though.

DaddyCoool:


There's no way to twist it. He stated it very clearly.
This below is contrived

Chai !!!!!


Where was Jesus Christ dwelling at the time he converted Paul?


Oga go and study your Bible.

Dust it very well & learn

DaddyCoool:


Semantics. If someone doesn't know something, he doesn't know it - regardless of whether it is ability or responsibility. If you then go ahead to say the person knows everything, you're being economical with the truth

I disagree with you.

It all lies in whether the person can know it but decides not to know it because as a matter of rule, that knowledge is the responsibility of someone else.

This means the person is not limited by ability. You can't start casting aspersions on Him as being limited in ability just because He decides to abide by the rules of the game.

Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in him. Hence, how is He limited in knowledge?

Nachmonides:


What are you implying—yes Christ is seated at the right hand of the God according to Col3:1.

Oga,
@ Colossians 2:9 is Paul writing about Jesus Christ a spirit person with fullness of divine nature who sits in heaven at God's right hand?

Nachmonides:


Nothing like the Apostle Paul talking about a resurrected Jesus, nor about a spirit person in heaven.

Oga,use your brain nah .
Colossians 2:9 and Colossians 3:1 is not rocket science.

Janosky:

Oga,
@ Colossians 2:9 is Paul writing about Jesus Christ a spirit person with fullness of divine nature who sits in heaven at God's right hand?

Oga,use your brain nah .
Colossians 2:9 and Colossians 3:1 is not rocket science.

Jesus Christ is not a spirit person, he is a man.

He died as a man, and rose as a man.

GothamCities:


I disagree with you.

It all lies in whether the person can know it but decides not to know it because as a matter of rule, that knowledge is the responsibility of someone else.

This means the person is not limited by ability. You can't start casting aspersions on Him as being limited in ability just because He decides to abide by the rules of the game.

Jesus is in the Father and the Father is in him. Hence, how is He limited in knowledge?

Ok, since the father is in him when he was crucified was the Father also crucified? Was the Father not in heaven?

DaddyCoool:


Ok, since the father is in him when he was crucified was the Father also crucified? Was the Father not in heaven?

Do you want to contrast something physical with something abstract?

Janosky:

Oga,
@ Colossians 2:9 is Paul writing about Jesus Christ a spirit person with fullness of divine nature who sits in heaven at God's right hand?

Oga,use your brain nah .
Colossians 2:9 and Colossians 3:1 is not rocket science.

If Paul wanted to write Spirit Person he'd have written it. That's NOT what he wrote

GothamCities:


Do you want to contrast something physical with something abstract?

Meaning?
Christ said simply that he didn't know the date of the second comming, NOT that he could know but chose not to. If he wanted to say that he would have - there was no limit on the number of words he could use!

DaddyCoool:


Meaning?
Christ said simply that he didn't know the date of the second comming, NOT that he could know but chose not to. If he wanted to say that he would have - there was no limit on the number of words he could use!

Quote the scriptures where He said He didn't know.

GothamCities:


Quote the scriptures where He said He didn't know.

Na wa for you o.
What have we been discussing all this time??

Matthew 24:36 New International Version (NIV)
"But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only"

No matter semantic tricks you try, you can't read that and still honestly say the Son was all-knowing at that point. Simple