NewStats: 3,262,356 , 8,176,908 topics. Date: Sunday, 01 June 2025 at 10:58 PM 123i4i

[quote author=AntiChristian post=132394618]

1. Jesus died for the sins of mankind.
What does the word death here mean and who is the Jesus being referred to in this statement? The latter predicates the other. For if it is the human Jesus which literally died, then this was not the Son dying. If it is that the Son died, then the Son was not a God.

Well one of God's punishment for man eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was death. Death here refers to the spirit returning to God who gave it and the body returning to dust. So if Jesus dies, it means he was human like every one of us. If he was God, then he can't die as death is only reserve for humans.The idea of a human sacrifice for sin belongs to the realm of Lucifer. Several times in the Tanakh God reinterated the fact that he hates human sacrifice and often punished the Jews for ing their sons through the fire of moloch. He also made it clear that children should not be put to death for the sin of the father and vice versa. For the problem of sin, he already provided a solution and it can be found in 2nd chronicles 7:14.

2. When you say death, what do you mean? Do you mean the death of the flesh or the spirit? If it is the death of the flesh, then the Son did not die, but a creation of God died and thus this was not an ultimate form of sacrifice. If it is the Spirit that died, then is it the spirit of the Son or the Spirit of the Man? If it is the Spirit of the Son, then God died and God cannot die, hence it is a paradox. If it is the Spirit of the man that died, then a creation of God died and thus this was not an ultimate form of sacrifice.

Life is a circle, you see that symbol on the cap of Tinubu, it is called OUROBOROS (It is a snake eating it's own tai, meaning life has no beginning or end) if we die it means the spirit returns to God and the body returns to the earth(the "US" in the book of Genesis refers to God and the earth) of that spirit has not completed its mission on earth, it is sent back to earth for another chance. When it returns to earth, it means it has "died" in the spirit. Spiritual death means being born in the flesh. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

3. If we take John 3:16 as a literal study, then we have numerous paradoxes being applied, for if the Son did ‘die’, but did not truly ‘die’, then the ‘sacrificial death’ was not fulfilled. If you claim the sacrificial death was fulfilled, then this is disproven by Thomas touching a physical body of Christ, whose wounds he felt. Thus if Christ was meant to be an ultimate sacrifice but did not die, but merely suffered wounds and continued to live, then there was no actual sacrifice

Jesus if he did exist only sacrificed his weekend. Human sacrifice is a No No for God. Only animals where allowed for sin sacrifice. Female goat/Sheep, less than 1 year old and without blemish. Jesus did not meet any of that.

4. Jesus did not for once tell anyone to believe in his death for the sins of mankind to be saved!

Because it makes no sense.
Confess and forsake, God will forgive.
The idea of believing in the death of a God for the forgiveness of sin makes absolutely zero sense. Who ever commits the sin, is the one that has to make the restitution. I can't go to jail for the sin of another person. If it does not work with humans, it certainly will not work with God..
Every man has to bear the consequences of their sins....

Kukutenla:

I may confess that I'm not responsible for your limited ability to understand concepts

Even if you had something to say, your presentation was absolute rubbish.

It panders to the lowest common denominator.

sonmvayina:

Even if you had something to say, your presentation was absolute rubbish.

It panders to the lowest common denominator.

Even if the presentation was top notch and devoid of distracting complexities
You will still not understand will you?

Kukutenla:

Even if the presentation was top notch and devoid of distracting complexities
You will still not understand will you?

It is not, it belongs to the dust bin...

No sense in it..

In 4 sentences, one for each, can you Sumerian your point.

sonmvayina:
Well one of God's punishment for man eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was death. Death here refers to the spirit returning to God who gave it and the body returning to dust. So if Jesus dies, it means he was human like every one of us. If he was God, then he can't die as death is only reserve for humans.The idea of a human sacrifice for sin belongs to the realm of Lucifer. Several times in the Tanakh God reinterated the fact that he hates human sacrifice and often punished the Jews for ing their sons through the fire of moloch. He also made it clear that children should not be put to death for the sin of the father and vice versa. For the problem of sin, he already provided a solution and it can be found in 2nd chronicles 7:14.

Unfortunately you showed your lack of depth of theology and realism. Death is not reserved for only humans sir. It is common sense. Death is available for all living things and only humans were exempted at first because they were made in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:27). Thus, if the likeness of God is immortality which was bestowed on human at creation, it means that anyone with the likeness of God and not man should also enjoy immortality. That is the mystery of Jesus. Since he was not born of man, he could not have inherited the curse of sin and death as laid out in Gen 3:19. However, because Jesus was in human form means that he can of course die since it is an innate characteristic of humans. Thus he did die when killed. But could not stay dead cause he had in him the likeness of God which man lost in the garden of Eden. God indeed detests human sacrifices. But did he not ask Abraham to sacifice his son as a figurative expression of his redeeming power? 2Chronicles 7:14 starts with "If my people who are called by My name". It is obvious from that chapter that Israel alone was being referred to here and not the whole earth. Same Israel refused to turn from their wicked ways. Instead after the death of Solomon, they grew in it!!

Life is a circle, you see that symbol on the cap of Tinubu, it is called OUROBOROS (It is a snake eating it's own tai, meaning life has no beginning or end) if we die it means the spirit returns to God and the body returns to the earth(the "US" in the book of Genesis refers to God and the earth) of that spirit has not completed its mission on earth, it is sent back to earth for another chance. When it returns to earth, it means it has "died" in the spirit. Spiritual death means being born in the flesh. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.

You believe in reincarnation? But you do not believe that God can incarnate as human! God could not have been referring to the earth because the earth has neither image nor likeness of God. And Genesis said "our image and likeness". Also the earth is not a living being. At least we are all sure of that neither does it have the image and likeness of man

Jesus if he did exist only sacrificed his weekend. Human sacrifice is a No No for God. Only animals where allowed for sin sacrifice. Female goat/Sheep, less than 1 year old and without blemish. Jesus did not meet any of that.

The sacrifice of Jesus was a sacrifice without blemish just as the goat or sheep was expected to be without blemish. The soul that sins shall die. Why should Jesus die if he had not sinned? Have you carried out any animal sacrifice to God since you were born? Again, II Cor 7:14 which you quoted stands in direct contrast to your claim.

Because it makes no sense.
Confess and forsake, God will forgive.
The idea of believing in the death of a God for the forgiveness of sin makes absolutely zero sense. Who ever commits the sin, is the one that has to make the restitution. I can't go to jail for the sin of another person. If it does not work with humans, it certainly will not work with God..
Every man has to bear the consequences of their sins....

Numbers 14:18

Yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished; He will visit the iniquity of the fathers upon their children to the third and fourth generation.'

Deuteronomy 5:9

I visit the iniquity of the fathers upon their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me

God in His anger does visit the offences of the fathers on their children. in 2 Samuel 21, God visited the sin of Saul first on Israelites by making them face famine for 3 years and later on his children by having seven of them hanged to avenge for the Gibeonites. If God could save Israelites from death by rai a serpent in the wilderness for them to look up to, how much more will he save those who believe in the death of his son?

sonmvayina:


It is not, it belongs to the dust bin...

No sense in it..

In 4 sentences, one for each, can you Sumerian your point.

Unfortunately, I do not believe you will understand the points in four sentences if you cannot understand them when fully elaborated like I did. That will be an unfortunate waste of time.
Pardon me pls

Kukutenla:

Unfortunately, I do not believe you will understand the points in four sentences if you cannot understand them when fully elaborated like I did. That will be an unfortunate waste of time.
Pardon me pls

Because there is nothing of substance in any of your comment...
That is the truth..

Kukutenla:
Unfortunately you showed your lack of depth of theology and realism. Death is not reserved for only humans sir. It is common sense. Death is available for all living things and only humans were exempted at first because they were made in the image and likeness of God (Gen 1:27). Thus, if the likeness of God is immortality which was bestowed on human at creation, it means that anyone with the likeness of God and not man should also enjoy immortality. That is the mystery of Jesus. Since he was not born of man, he could not have inherited the curse of sin and death as laid out in Gen 3:19. However, because Jesus was in human form means that he can of course die since it is an innate characteristic of humans. Thus he did die when killed. But could not stay dead cause he had in him the likeness of God which man lost in the garden of Eden. God indeed detests human sacrifices. But did he not ask Abraham to sacifice his son as a figurative expression of his redeeming power? 2Chronicles 7:14 starts with "If my people who are called by My name". It is obvious from that chapter that Israel alone was being referred to here and not the whole earth. Same Israel refused to turn from their wicked ways. Instead after the death of Solomon, they grew in it!!

You believe in reincarnation? But you do not believe that God can incarnate as human! God could not have been referring to the earth because the earth has neither image nor likeness of God. And Genesis said "our image and likeness". Also the earth is not a living being. At least we are all sure of that neither does it have the image and likeness of man

The sacrifice of Jesus was a sacrifice without blemish just as the goat or sheep was expected to be without blemish. The soul that sins shall die. Why should Jesus die if he had not sinned? Have you carried out any animal sacrifice to God since you were born? Again, II Cor 7:14 which you quoted stands in direct contrast to your claim.


Numbers 14:18
Deuteronomy 5:9 God in His anger does visit the offences of the fathers on their children. in 2 Samuel 21, God visited the sin of Saul first on Israelites by making them face famine for 3 years and later on his children by having seven of them hanged to avenge for the Gibeonites. If God could save Israelites from death by rai a serpent in the wilderness for them to look up to, how much more will he save those who believe in the death of his son?

What is man?
What or who is God?
What is death?

Your answers to this question will help me gauge your your level of awareness.

Please oblige me, thank you

sonmvayina:


Because there is nothing of substance in any of your comment...
That is the truth..

You are far from the truth
You are ignorant as you are misguided

sonmvayina:


What is man?
What or who is God?
What is death?

Your answers to this question will help me gauge your your level of awareness.

Please oblige me, thank you

These questions are meaningless I regret to inform you
They hold no significance to your awareness

Kukutenla:

These questions are meaningless I regret to inform you
They hold no significance to your awareness

Ok..no Wahala,

I think I have my answers already...
Thank you..

Kukutenla:

You are far from the truth
You are ignorant as you are misguided

Mr jesus believer...
Jesus never existed.

He is just a character in a book.

If you had half a brain you would have known that..

But again....you don't...


Just wallow in ignorance..

sonmvayina:


Ok..no Wahala,

I think I have my answers already...
Thank you..

The answers have been starring at you since
You only refused to see it
Good you have arrived at fairer sobriety

sonmvayina:


Mr jesus believer...
Jesus never existed.

He is just a character in a book.

If you had half a brain you would have known that..

But again....you don't...


Just wallow in ignorance..

The existence of Jesus is not up for debate. Even Muhammad is a character in a book
There is no religious figure who isn't a character in a book
You've said nothing convincing about the status of Jesus

Kukutenla:

You are far from the truth
You are ignorant as you are misguided

Such a godlike man.

Kukutenla:

The existence of Jesus is not up for debate. Even Muhammad is a character in a book
There is no religious figure who isn't a character in a book
You've said nothing convincing about the status of Jesus

He never existed..

See what I scholar found out..about your Jesus.

Kukutenla:

The answers have been starring at you since
You only refused to see it
Good you have arrived at fairer sobriety

You don't even know what You worship day in day out
You don't even know what man is?

And you pride yourself...

What should I even compare you to?

sonmvayina:


He never existed..

See what I scholar found out..about your Jesus.

Was this scholar born in the 1st century to have known this?

sonmvayina:


You don't even know what You worship day in day out
You don't even know what man is?

And you pride yourself...

What should I even compare you to?

Ok....

I don't worship man
What does it add to me whether I know what is man or not

Kukutenla:

Ok....

I don't worship man
What does it add to me whether I know what is man or not

You worship a dirty man that was nailed to a cross....as God. Because he is white.

And you want to deny it....

Kukutenla:

Was this scholar born in the 1st century to have known this?

He is s scholar in religious studies....

An associate professor...

One of the best in Bible history.

Same with professor Richard Carrier...

Read their books...and educate yourself..

sonmvayina:


You worship a dirty man that was nailed to a cross....as God. Because he is white.

And you want to deny it....

Which is it?
Is Jesus real or fictional? Because now you're calling him a white man nailed to the cross while you claimed he never existed

sonmvayina:


He is s scholar in religious studies....

An associate professor...

One of the best in Bible history.

Same with professor Richard Carrier...

Read their books...and educate yourself..

That he's a professor doesn't make him right all the time

sonmvayina:


He is s scholar in religious studies....

An associate professor...

One of the best in Bible history.

Same with professor Richard Carrier...

Read their books...and educate yourself..

Maybe you should educate urself better. Bart is not a mythicist and doesn't subscribe to the view Jesus never existed. The biblical academic scholarly consensus is that there was a historical Jesus, a position Bart himself holds. Mythicists like Carrier are among a minor minority who go against the consensus. So there was a historical Jesus, a pic of a quote taken out of context does nothing to change this, you could check out his 'Misquoting Jesus' amongst other books or his blog or podcast. Infact you'd be hard pressed to find a reputable scholar that s your claim save for mythicists, so refer bk to first sentence.

Lucifyre:


Maybe you should educate urself better. Bart is not a mythicist and doesn't subscribe to the view Jesus never existed. The biblical academic scholarly consensus is that there was a historical Jesus, a position Bart himself holds. Mythicists like Carrier are among a minor minority who go against the consensus. So there was a historical Jesus, a pic of a quote taken out of context does nothing to change this, you could check out his 'Misquoting Jesus' amongst other books or his blog or podcast. Infact you'd be hard pressed to find a reputable scholar that s your claim save for mythicists, so refer bk to first sentence.

Why don't you read the book by Kenneth Humphreys "Jesus never existed" to update your knowledge.
He never existed bro...

He being born with no input from a human father should be a red flag for any body with half a brain. No to talk of the two contradictory genealogy in Mathew and Luke...so may holes in the story.

Kukutente23:

That he's a professor doesn't make him right all the time

But there is no mention of Jesus in first century of the Christian era? Why do you think so..

The only mention of chrestianity which later became Christianity where the worshippers of serapis.
The Jews where waiting for a Messiah that will deliver them from their enemies and restore peace....Not somebody that will change God's divine laws. See Deuteronomy 13...

Google "what really happened at Nicea"..

Kukutente23:

Which is it?
Is Jesus real or fictional? Because now you're calling him a white man nailed to the cross while you claimed he never existed

People worship Zeus, Poseidon, etc. Those that make them real..

I am only referencing what is written in the story book...

Worship your creator and follow his laws. God is not a Jewish man or a man at all. Worshipping a man as God is nothing short of idolatry...
.
Education is key..

sonmvayina:


But there is no mention of Jesus in first century of the Christian era? Why do you think so..

The only mention of chrestianity which later became Christianity where the worshippers of serapis.
The Jews where waiting for a Messiah that will deliver them from their enemies and restore peace....Not somebody that will change God's divine laws. See Deuteronomy 13...

Google "what really happened at Nicea"..

Where are you getting this your gist from that there's no mention of Jesus? So what were Christians worshipping in the first century and how did they come to be known as Christians?
Na wa o

sonmvayina:


People worship Zeus, Poseidon, etc. Those that make them real..

I am only referencing what is written in the story book...

Worship your creator and follow his laws. God is not a Jewish man or a man at all. Worshipping a man as God is nothing short of idolatry...
.
Education is key..

Who said God is a Jewish man
What man am I worshipping a God
You just can't stay in one place
If you insist that Jesus never existed, why do you still say I'm worshiping a Jewish man
I believe you need to get your story straight

sonmvayina:


Why don't you read the book by Kenneth Humphreys "Jesus never existed" to update your knowledge.
He never existed bro...

He being born with no input from a human father should be a red flag for any body with half a brain. No to talk of the two contradictory genealogy in Mathew and Luke...so may holes in the story.

😅 Kenneth Humphreys! Really! You just made my point. So first you cite Dr Bart, a reputable renowned scholar to your claim because you saw a random pic without even understanding the context, and then attibuted it that he s said claim, when in fact the reverse is the case. Which is funny in itself, i then tell you the academic consensus and that almost if not all reputable scholars subscribe to this consensus.

You then mention Humphreys, who has limited info on his academic credentials, no apparent affiliation with any reputable academic institutions or even engagement with the academic community, which has largely ignored or criticized his work. Even Carrier, a mythicist who you mentioned earlier has described Humphreys work as amateurish. So it's funny you mention him all in a bid to cling to bias.

That's the thing about consensus fact though, it doesn't care if you believe or not, it just is. The fact there are people who believe the earth is flat won't make the earth flat. Your bias is leading you all over the place. Fact remians there was a 'historical' Jesus. Myths about him being born of a virgin or what not have nothing to do with this fact. And its also ironic and funny you believe in part 1 of the book and call part 2 fiction when the whole book is same.

Lucifyre:


😅 Kenneth Humphreys! Really! You just made my point. So first you cite Dr Bart, a reputable renowned scholar to your claim because you saw a random pic without even understanding the context, and then attibuted it that he s said claim, when in fact the reverse is the case. Which is funny in itself, i then tell you the academic consensus and that almost if not all reputable scholars subscribe to this consensus.

You then mention Humphreys, who has limited info on his academic credentials, no apparent affiliation with any reputable academic institutions or even engagement with the academic community, which has largely ignored or criticized his work. Even Carrier, a mythicist who you mentioned earlier has described Humphreys work as amateurish. So it's funny you mention him all in a bid to cling to bias.

That's the thing about consensus fact though, it doesn't care if you believe or not, it just is. The fact there are people who believe the earth is flat won't make the earth flat. Your bias is leading you all over the place. Fact remians there was a 'historical' Jesus. Myths about him being born of a virgin or what not have nothing to do with this fact. And its also ironic and funny you believe in part 1 of the book and call part 2 fiction when the whole book is same.

Fact remains Jesus belongs to mythology same as Moses, Abraham...I am not excluding anyone ..

The only reason they where written is for us to read the story and learn the messages they contain.
The Torah is still about the two brothers..
Enki = Jacob
Enlil = Esau...
So when Christians decided to mistranslate the text just to deceive, that fact is what I am pointing out...

Kukutente23:

Who said God is a Jewish man
What man am I worshipping a God
You just can't stay in one place
If you insist that Jesus never existed, why do you still say I'm worshiping a Jewish man
I believe you need to get your story straight

Jesus belongs to the realm of mythology.

Worshipping him is nothing short of foolishness.

If you belong to the group that worship him as god you need to have your head examined.